This mailbag episode has everything from music to nostalgia, to transit, to cars, to RenCen ideas. You all had some great feedback! Some of it is negative. Some of it is positive, but we're glad to be continuing the conversation.

Listen in the player below, and scroll down for a complete transcript.

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Drinking from the cup of our haters (Listener mailbag!)
Podcast Episode · Daily Detroit · 12/19/2024 · 31m

Jer Staes: Hello, and welcome to your Daily Detroit! It is Thursday, December 19, 2024. I am Jer Staes, sharing what to know and where to go in southeast Michigan. And today we're going to share how you all are feeling about it in a special mailbag episode, otherwise known as “We drink the blood of our haters.” And joining me to drink from the goblet is none other than Mr. Norris Howard. How are you?

Norris Howard: Oh, man, I'm feeling excellent. I'm about to let the negativity wash all over me. Man, I can't wait. You know I thrive off negativity. I really do. So whether it's positive or negative, I'm excited to see how you all feel about everything. And let's get to it, man, becaus you guys always have some great reviews and stuff.

Jer Staes: Yeah, it is a spectrum of feelings.

Norris Howard: Yeah.

Jer Staes: But let's talk about you first.

Norris Howard: Oh, okay. That's my favorite subject!

From Mark, “Detroit is not burdened by nostalgia porn like other older U.S. cities. It has history that should always be respected. The city is continuing to persevere, evolve, and develop in the 21st century as those of us who have truly lived here our whole lives. Not just metro Detroiters or some-time Detroiters can attest to the old and new Detroit can coexist. But I guess a whining Millennial Black boy and white girl disagree.” 

This is referring, of course, to your episode about music.

So here's the number one thing. Number one, I spent two years outside the city and the rest in the city. I currently live in the city. So let's take that out of there.

Number one, you were literally known as the Prince of Brightmoor

Norris Howard: Like literally! I can't be more Detroit. But the point is, I disagree with you. I think that it's becoming painfully clear that new and old Detroit can't coexist, which is why we're doing things to gut out old Detroit and replace it with new Detroit, which I think to a certain extent has to happen. 

Evolution is not something we need to be afraid of. What I do lament and what I am afraid of and what does bother me is the fact that beyond just Detroit, there is a long list of old people not getting out of the way. It sounds like you may fall into that category of old folks who don't want to get out of the way.

But doesn't this feel like a bigger issue? You know, I don't want to necessarily bring politics into it, but there is the example of, say, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and that House seat. And basically, the maneuvering. So the 74 year old [Gerry Connolly] takes the seat. And I feel like there is a lot of that here too.

Exactly. And listen, I'm not necessarily downgrading or denigrating any of those things that you talked about. But what I will say is that it is a part of a long line of trying to hold onto things that, to be perfectly honest, no one under the age of 50 cares about. Motown is cool. It belongs in a museum. But just like you can go on the street and ask people's opinions on Caravaggio, I'm pretty sure you couldn't go and ask somebody's opinion on Motown. That's a certain age [group], and that's okay. We got to embrace that.

Yeah. There were two other feedback points on this one from Mr. Green. “Norris, get in your place, young man. How dare you disrespect Martha. This is all this town has. Nobody needs musicians with guns.”

Who says musicians have to have guns? The ones I named had guns, but who cares? [Are] We not gonna talk about Johnny Cash and all the guns that he had in his music and how many people died in his songs? We don't talk about that. This is what I'm saying. 

This is the hypocrisy of it. Just because it's old doesn't necessarily give it more value than something else. And that's what we need to sort of come to a consensus.  

And listen, like I said, with all due respect, I love a lot of Motown music. I listen to a lot of Motown music. 

My problem is we pick the same five to ten Motown songs when there are thousands that we could be choosing from. That's my issue. Tere is a nostalgia connected to certain songs, certain people, certain things. And there is even more to choose from, from even within the pool you're talking about. So what are we saying?

Lisa writes – this is for Norris – “Who did you wrong? Why do you hate your elders so much? Motown should never die.”

It's dead. What are you talking about?

Well, I mean, there's the museum and the expansion after those things are, I think, important to do and I think honoring. Like, I would love to see more statues of artists. I would like to see more visuals that represent a more diverse population, not just within the city, but in the region as well. Those are things I would like to see.

And what did I say? Also … Because everybody got all bent out of shape, what I heard is that you can have space for reverence. I'm not saying don't be reverential of your past. There is space for reference. Just like, you know, the dinosaurs are dead too, but we put them in museums.

Like, you know, birds are dinosaurs. Right?

Exactly. We saw it at the Science Center.

We did.

But the thing is, is that for as much as we love Motown, for as much as that legacy carries on, that style of music, that era of Detroit is gone. So why are we trying to recapture this stuff that's gone? Let's make new stuff. And I'm not just talking about rap. There's so much other music. I still don't see Derrick May and Kevin Saunderson put on the same level.

There's so much rock.

And like, I bet you even Jack White would say that there's so much rock in this town beyond Jack White that should be highlighted. That's why he's invested so much money into Third Man Records and all those other things.

Absolutely. I mean, a lot of people don't even know. Until the documentary came out, nobody knew about the band Death. Right? The proto punk band came out in the 60s, did all that stuff. That's a Detroit band! I heard them in one Tigers commercial once. Ever! And you’re talking about a band that could have inadvertently created punk as a genre, and yet that's not uplifted and put on the same level as Motown. So let's just be real and say there is other stuff that we can reference that's just as important and just as cool.

I have a personal story to share with you about punk music.

Sure.

Did you know that originally my father was gonna name me Iggy?

That's hilarious.

After Iggy Pop. Because he was a huge Iggy Pop fan.

Iggy Staes.

That's right. Little did he know.

That’s a much better radio name. I'm gonna be honest with you. 

You think so? Iggy Staes? 

Yeah, man! That's a great radio name.

Jer Staes: Yeah. My grandmother was so upset at the idea of me being named Iggy that she literally. … Now, this was in the 80s over at Hudson Hospital. 

Norris Howard: Yeah, you needed a good Christian name.

Jer Staes: So they ran across and, like, went for the paperwork. Diving for the paperwork.

That's so good.

To get my mother to sign off, which … my mother was not on board with Iggy. She wanted a good Christian name.

Yeah.

So my grandmother and my mother conspired so that I am not Iggy. Rest all their souls.

Yeah. Well, it might have been a better move for you professionally, but it's still a good radio name.

Now, this one is some hate towards me from Johnnie. Yeah, let's bring it on from Johnnie. And Royal Oak. “I don't know why you hate cars so much, Jer. Our region was built on cars. It's what we do. It's all we know. You know, where the best places are to eat. But it feels like you're a giant hipster sometimes.” Am I a giant hipster, Norris Howard?

No. No, I don't. I don't consider you a hipster.

You know, I actually like some cars.

I think you have taste. I don't think you're a hipster, but I do think you have taste. So I think that's a part of it, maybe.

I really enjoy driving the Mach E. That was fun to drive.

It was fun!

You know what? And I like classic cars. I like the visuals of cars. There was an Instagram reel that I saw that was very interesting to me that showed that actually New York City is one of the safest cities in America and safest counties in America, due to less cars. And a big part of that is that cars are corralled and put under control in busy areas. And I know how much pedestrians get killed. And I also just don't believe in the two class system that we have here of either you have a car or you don't, or using transit makes you less than right. And that is a cultural and moral belief for me, which I know is very different than many of my fellow residents.

I mean, but also, why is everybody so afraid of the car not being central to the destiny of Detroit anymore? Why? Why is that?

I think it'll always be a part. It'll always be a part because it's a part …

But I said central. Okay, central. Right? For the better part. It's 130 years. It's been central to Detroit's experience as a town. I'm saying it can't be anymore beyond. It shouldn't; it cannot be. Because we are not diverse enough as an economy for it to remain the central thing. So my thing is, why is everybody so afraid of that not being the central thing in this region?

Riddle me that … my friend from Heather, Sterling Heights. “Why do you talk about transit so much? I want cheap parking. If you want transit, move to Chicago or Columbus or San Francisco. I like your fun stories, but I don't think this region can turn around. I'm here because my parents are. Once their lights are off, our house is too.”

All right, then. Bye! Like, goodbye. I don't know why you listen to the show then. Like, you know, my thing is, is that, you know, if you say, oh, if you want nice things, go somewhere else. That's literally what you just said. If you want something nice, go elsewhere. How is that constructive?

So here's something I want to share that I've been thinking about. And this is from my background. If you're coming to this episode for the first time, … I started my career as a floor manager at Channel 4 News in 1998, 1999. My first thing I worked on was the Hudson's demolition. 

I also worked as part of the Detroit Regional News Hub as a concierge for national, international, and local journalists about Detroit. Not just all positive stories. Yes, of course, but, okay, you wanna find information on this, you wanna learn about this, how do we get you what's actually happening? And, what I realized starting at that experience and going till today is that I understand the sentiment about Detroit versus everybody, but when it comes to people being negative, having negative vibes, saying negative things, and also just generally feeling like we can't. It's Detroit versus ourselves.

Absolutely.

I so often showed people Avalon Breads. Remember when Avalon first kind of rose up? I was talking to journalists, and … you know … the journalists who didn't know about it were the local ones.

The local ones!

When I talk to people, and I'm not just saying the city of Detroit, I'm saying regionally here, we have to stand tall and say that we believe that we can do things. And one of the things that drives me nuts is that we have so many. And I'm fine with outside investment. It is what it is. 

But when I talk to people for this show, and, you know, not just on the show, but reporting all that other stuff, I keep connected in the world. There are so many things that people outside of this region do that are easy layups that they see and they execute on. And it is only us. Like, we could have done it. We could have done it for the last 10 years. But we don't because we're like, “oh, well, it'll never be, or whatever.” I will hear investors — I'll hear people with money say these things.

No, I completely agree with you. And I think one of the most important things is that if we're going to be talking about something like transit, because a lot of people comment on it. When you look at the history of transit in so many other places, not just Chicago, New York … But when you look at the Bay Area in San Francisco and Oakland, when you look at Columbus, when you look at Seattle, when you look at so many other towns that have figured it out in the past 50 years … So I'm not talking about the New York system, which, you know, going back a hundred years, there was a plan for it. 

No! If you look at these sort of smaller cities and what they've been able to figure out and how to do it, all it took was cooperation. All it took was for everybody in the region to be on board and to say, “hey, this is a thing that we should do because it will make all of us better. It will make everything here a better thing.” 

When I hear somebody out and out, say, “if you want a nice thing, just go somewhere else,” [it] not only lets me know that you have no willingness to contribute to the solution, but also you think the solution is impossible. And if that's how you feel, then, yes, you should not live here. You should go live elsewhere.

Now, this one we're going to get into some comments from the newsletter that I actually sent on Tuesday that's already elicited a lot of reaction. Our evening edition from Josh via Instagram. “The People Mover isn't perfect, but it's what we have. I say slowly start adding expansions to it until it becomes the useful system we've always wanted. It would be nice if we developed just a long term, very incremental expansion plan for it as a goal to achieve. Start with Eastern Market, then Corktown or Wayne State, then Belle Isle, then double track, downtown, whatever. Each of these can be its own project and we shoot for one at a time until our little loop is a whole system.” 

And if you haven't seen that newsletter, go check it on dailydetroit.com. I wrote a bit of an editorial around it with my evolving thoughts around transit. But Norris, what do you think?

The fact that there is a more meaningful conversation around this happening, I think is an incredible and a positive thing. Everybody who has listened to the show knows about how I feel about the People Mover, but I only feel that way because I feel like the idea is half-baked. If it was a true blue system where people were, you know, we were building on top of it, as is being outlined in some of these sorts of plans and conversations, I think that's incredible. 

I think if we could get the People Mover … which, you know, there's still no solid ideas on what that looks like and how we can, you know, connect with everything in the future. But if we're talking about just a simple street level or raised rail or elevated rail system that goes across the whole city, goes to all the attractions, that is a fantastic thing. 

And I think we need to invest in it. And I think we need to invest in it quickly because that is a … We're talking about an immediate improvement to the quality of life of every Detroit resident, period. Why would you not be on board with that?!

From Ann in Oakland County: “I love the optimism about the Detroit People Mover. I just wish it would go to the suburbs and neighborhoods where people lived. I haven't been to Chicago, so I don't know how it all would work. Can you guys kind of tell me?”

The Chicago system works in tandem? It is really more than one system. Like you have the …

And there is no silver bullet for any of this. Every city has their own thing. You mentioned Chicago. We both have experience with it, so we'll talk about it. But there are different ways to approach this.

Yeah. So like the way Chicago works is you got CTA and you got Metra where … there's like CTA is in the inner city. Get everywhere in the city limits of Chicago and a little, little bit of suburbs and the little itty bitty smidge of the sort of connecting suburbs, whether as you have Metra, which is like your commuter rail to your more farther flung suburbs. So to give an analogy, a Detroit rail system that would be comparative would serve like the city of Detroit, plus maybe like Southfield, Ferndale, maybe Royal Oak, maybe Royal Oak and like Eastpointe and stuff like that.

The Grosse Pointes or somewhere in the Pointes or in Dearborn.

Whether the metro commuter rail would go all the way to Ann Arbor or all the way up to Flint or all the way out to Port Huron potentially. Like that would be the scale.

Or Sterling Heights or something.

Or Sterling Heights. Yeah. That would be more so like the scale of the commuter rail system.

M. Yeah. I think it's interesting to look at that. I think Chicago gets brought up because the people mover is elevated and much of the Chicago system is elevated, though not all of it.

Well, and it's a similar demo[graphic] in terms of the type of people that live in Chicago. And also there's just a cultural connection to Chicago. It's a Rust Belt city. So I see why people look at that, want to emulate that.

From Michael: “I read your newsletter on Tuesday and was very disappointed to see no transit lanes in Corktown. It feels very frustrating. But I think your editorial was on point. I know you and Norris disagree sometimes on transit. Can you two talk about Corktown specifically and your transit?” 

Now, some of our points already got relayed in that — your idea about the People Mover. Because that's where we've disagreed in the past. And I will note there is the new news that the general manager of the People Mover has just been appointed the head of DDOT.

Yes.

And will serve on the board of the People Mover. But anyway, continuing on to … Let's talk about Corktown a little bit.

We had a sort of big to do earlier this year talking about Corktown because obviously you can't serve two masters where there's like you got a lot of Corktown residents who want to kind of keep the kitschy red brick. They want to keep the nostalgia of Corktown. But in order to do that, you're not going to be able to get the transit lanes and the surface rail that you want in order to make this an actual viable transit corridor, you're going to have to re-do the business.

The business? The businesses want out.

Yeah. And this is one out. So you're going to have to redo those streets in order to get that access. That's been my biggest thing with Court Town where there's. Obviously, there's a lot of growth in that area of the city. There's a lot of energy in that area of the city. Especially if this DCFC stadium gets put in court. Town, like the plan is. Yeah, it's gonna have to be rethought for pretty large transit.

Yeah, I think this is where the idea of something like a people mover, like line and I think about like the footprint of the people mover pylons, pillars. I don't know the right word, Apologies, transit nerds columns. But if you put it on the south side, like over by where the car wash is, you put on that side of the road, I think there's enough ways where you could make it so that if you were to do an elevated rail, you could make something interesting happen there, or you wouldn't even.

Have to build it to be the same pillars. Right. Because I'm pretty sure, like, in 37 years, we figured out a better way to build elevated tracks. So even if you did it that way, I think it would be built more.

Maybe cross it over at some point.

It might cross over at some point to serve both east and westbound lanes. But either way, I think it being elevated is the way to go because it would be missing, minimally disturbing to traffic and all the rest of that stuff.

Well, especially in light of the fact that that was shot down. And I personally have … You know … I understand the needs of businesses for parking and all that other stuff, and I am very sympathetic to that. But also, I think there was just, there could have been something even better than what was put out there. And I guess I just feel like, okay, all right, it is what it is, so we're just gonna have to work around it.

But it goes back full circle to me, to the nostalgia conversation, whether it was like, I don't even think those businesses care that much if you didn't have this energy of like, don't change this identifier of our neighborhood when it's like, bro, it's cork town.

And you could still keep the bricks.

You can still keep the bricks, put them on the sidewalks, put them elsewhere. But it's like, you think we're going to put transit lanes in the street and get rid of parking? No, that's not what we're doing. And also, I don't know, get together and make a parking structure. That seems to be what everybody wants to do anyway. More parking. We got listeners talking about wanting more parking.

But you know, the funny thing about parking structures is that people feel away about them here in metro Detroit and that they generally want to see their car from wherever they're coming from.

That's stupid. I'm sorry. Like I'm sorry that's.

I had to get more hate mail.

I have no rebuttal to that other than it's stupid. Do you want it to be efficient or not? God!

Mitch, who is new to Detroit from Minneapolis: The first one are some questions about Corktown development which I need to look into and I will, I promise you, Mitch, about specific buildings. I have not looked into it yet. But the second part of your question, this, is more of a comment about the area as a whole. “Since moving here, I've noticed metro Detroit seems to be plagued with excessive trash all around on roads, highways, et cetera. Every big city has trash, but I've never seen an area of the US quite like this. I also saw in the news this year that Michigan was ranked as the worst state for most waste per person in the country. I feel like I noticed this at the grocery stores with excessive use of single use plastic bags by everyone and not many reusable bag users or even paper bag options at checkout. I've got to think this doesn't help with the ongoing trash problem. Not sure if the cause is social, political, economic, but it's a shame to see and has been a comment of nearly everyone I've had here to visit. Do you know of any significant push to help out with this issue? Love the show and everything you guys do.” 

I know there were some issues around like preventing the ban of plastic bags.

Yep.

Because some people really like their plastic bags. I, for the record, am always asking for paper bags.

But see, it just goes back to like you want the new stuff but you don't want to change anything to get the new stuff. Detroit is a dirty city. It's dirty. It's a combination of factors. Lack of city services, drastic drop in population. And therefore you got a lot of. This is not just. No, so it's a regional thing. It's a regional thing. 

But if we're going to compare, as this person would say, city to city, which is what I'm going to do, compare city to city. I too have been to many cities across the U.S. and many metro areas across the U.S. and yes, it is dirty here comparatively. And the reason is, a myriad of those factors are economic factors because when I lived out in the suburbs, trash pickup was clockwork. You got free bins from the city, no questions asked and they got there the next day.

I literally just got bulk trash pickup in my neighborhood recently.

Exactly. The communication to get bulk trash pickup is very clear. And also the places to drop off bulk trash when you can't make bulk trash day are very clear and open all year long and ah, easy to get to. So these things, the services that they have in other places, they just are there.

Even the availability of trash cans. So my roommate accidentally left out a trash can on the side of the road. And here's the thing, after three days it was full with other people's trash, which I was like, “oh, my block actually just needs a trash can and someone to empty it.” But there's no service ability to do that.

Exactly. When we're talking about a lot of that stuff, you know, couple it with massive swaths of land that are just unattended, unoccupied. So trash can pile up and proliferate in those places. It's tough.

And one of the reasons why you see a better situation in parts of greater downtown is that that is not actually handled by the city of Detroit. It’s privatized. 

That's handled by the Downtown Detroit Partnership, which is a nonprofit. We've actually had Eric Larson on the show before. The city does not pick that up. That is picked up by that group. And there are neighborhoods that contract with them for more trash pickup. So if you see a little bit more like better trash pickup in those areas, that is not the city doing that. That is, people don't like to talk about it because nobody wants to admit the city isn't doing it.

They can't do it, but it does.

And it spreads some of that weight off of the city services from that downtown area. And it's part of like the, I don't remember all the funding, but that business improvement district and all that other kind of stuff. So that's part of why you see some changes in different areas. 

All right, let's end with Jordan, avid listener here. “My work week follows a pretty set path these days. My commute from Detroit to Rochester is filled with the Daily Detroit podcast. By the way, shout out. I know so many listeners who live in the city and go out to the suburbs for work. That is in fact, most people in the city leave the city for work. And my cup of coffee is accompanied by a one word Google search. Detroit Today. I'm on a free article that I'm sure you'll come across, if you haven't already. Hear me out. Make the Renaissance Center a water park. The water park idea is fun and maybe has legs, but the idea that really has me intrigued is the possibility of the RenCen to become the new U.S. Department of Transportation headquarters. It seems to me a lot of stars are aligned on this one now with the Republican administration. They're talking about decentralizing Washington, all those kinds of things. I'm very curious to hear your thoughts. Is it feasible? Are there downsides?” 

I will put a link in the show notes. I will say this just from a political standpoint. People keep talking about decentralizing Washington for how many years? You could see satellite offices, but as much as everybody says they hate the administrative state, there is an issue with condensing talent. I don't know if that entire concept is possible, and I'm sorry for some of my friends on the right, but this has been floated by the left too. I don't see workers going along with this.

No, I don't see the folks who work for the federal Department of Transportation saying, “oh, that's cool, I'll leave DC to go move to Detroit or anywhere.”

I don't even think that's a Detroit thing.

I think that's anywhere. But that's what I'm saying is to move anywhere. So I think that's a tough pill to swallow. I think in theory it is one of those things that sounds nice, right? Like it sounds cool. But at the same time, not only do you talk about a dilution of talent, but I think also just the sheer ability to be able to coordinate on massive projects and, and be in Washington and go before Congress. 

It sounds like, oh, they could just get on and play. It sounds like it should just be, be easy, or they could just do it remotely. But there is so much of our government that has to be done in person. And I just think right now bifurcating that, will just make the situation worse. Unfortunately.

I do think it's a real possibility that somebody like the Wayne County offices could leave the Guardian and go and do a part of the RenCen. And I totally could see that. Because the Guardian is not well suited to be a county office. The Guardian would be more well suited for many other uses because Wayne County is very spread out. The RenCen has plentiful parking. It actually would make a lot of sense using a tower or part of it as a county hub because you could centralize everything. You could make it so that if somebody who lives in Taylor or Brownstown Township or Northville has to come down they got someplace they could easily park. If you have business there, everything could be centralized. I actually think that makes a lot of sense on paper.

I agree. I think when you look at the two towers that will remain, if they actually did demolish two of those. Who knows what's going to happen? We don't know what the plan is. 

But I think if you say, “Hey, one of the towers is for the county. We got another part of the tower that's going to be the sort of overflow and annex of city services,” because they talked about that too; you have still the central tower for the hotel, which is great because now when you have business with the county and you're coming from some far flung place in the state or the country and you're trying to make some business deals happen. Hey, right there. The tower is right there. You stay in the tower, you go over to the office. It makes a lot of sense.

I don't know all the details, but honestly, like, having a tower that's county offices just makes so much sense.

It does. And the ability to just go to a centralized place. Obviously the Guardian Building is beautiful, and we love the Guardian Building, but it's a pain. It's old. It's going to be difficult to, you know, put upgrades into. It's going to be difficult for a lot of stuff to happen there. But when you go to the RenCen, you get this thing that is kind of already built to have that kind of business happening in it. And I think it's just a decent idea.

And imagine a Guardian Building that you lived in. I mean, it would be a great address. Right. Like that's your lobby downstairs. Have that full up with some retail and things like that. I feel like that makes a lot more sense.

Yeah. And it definitely is something that could be possible. As you had the David Stott Building, which was rehabbed in a similar fashion to be turned into residential. I think it's something that you could do. But I think as it stands right now to your comment, we don't really know what's happening with the RenCen. The water park is a terrible idea. I think it's awful.

Hold on.

It's an awful idea.

I don't think it's terrible as an attraction in a larger thing. I don't think it's a terrible idea. I don't think it's a centerpiece. I think it's …

It's warm for three months a year!

That's why it will always be busy! A water park inside like Great Wolf Lodge.

So stupid. I just think it's just a terrible idea.

I think having that good kind of accoutrement would be great.

You know, maybe, you know … if we just had Kalahari, but in the city. Sure, maybe. But I, I just feel like there's other uses, like the Winter Garden.

Just, just put some slides in there.

I think the municipal office's idea is a much better idea.

And once you're done being stressed out, you can, you can go slide down the slide.

Not the giant slide, though. What if they recreated the giant slide.

As a water park slide?

As a water park slide, maybe. Yeah, that's okay. You might have sold me. But the municipal office's idea is a great idea. Let's do it.

All right, well, thank you so much for your feedback. Daily Detroit Gmail.com would love to hear from you. Even if you hate us, that's fine.

You know, but you know what?

That's part of the job.

But not just part of the job. But I appreciate your negative comments because they force us to think in a different way. And I appreciate you because you should know, even if you don't agree with us, that your voice can be heard on Daily Detroit. So thank you. Both comments, both positive and negative.

All right, well, tomorrow, man about town, Devon O'Reilly will be on the microphone. He is going to take a break over the holidays, but we're going to take some time off for how, for like the actual days and stuff. But we're going to be around some bit, so if you've got questions or things you want us to look into or fun stuff, let us know: dailydetroit@gmail.com. Thank you as always to our members on Patreon patreon.com/dailydetroit. And you know what, Norris Howard, thank you, man.

I appreciate you as well. And listen, if you guys don't hear from me before the end of the new year, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Festivus, and most of all, a happy New Year!

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